138. Simon King
Simon King is a London based documentary photographer and teacher, and the director of Everything Happens All the Time · Instagram · Blog · 35mmc author page
In this episode
Simon King spent about four months shooting Everything Happens All the Time, a free, feature-length film of 27 London street photographers talking to him and, in the edit, to each other. I'd watched it before we sat down and loved it, so this conversation started early and wandered: why the film lets photographers talk about whatever they like, what a photography community looks like when nobody is lurking in a doorway with a long lens, and why cheap kit isn't the barrier it's made out to be. Then it gets harder. What do you become once the thing is finished? Simon is candid about the slump that follows a project, about not caring whether anyone sees his work, and about why he thinks the making has to be the part you enjoy. There's also a very good story about a portrait that ended up on somebody's mum's fridge.
Highlights
Positions are approximate (percentage of the way through the conversation) until real timestamps are added.
• [~7%] Why the film shows photographers as people hanging out, not noir detectives with long lenses
• [~11%] The production company that bought the cheapest CCTV tape going so marginalised communities could see themselves on TV
• [~12%] Why the easiest film to make on a phone tends to be an aggro one, and the £3 karaoke-toy microphone going to India instead
• [~25%] Around 35 interviews shot, 27 kept, and why street photography is a niche of a niche that most people only meet through controversy
• [~42%] "So I'm making it for no one": the problem with a second film
• [~47%] The slump after finishing, and why he doesn't buy the romantic version of it
• [~64%] Why leaving your work behind sounds to him like litter, and the print that ended up on a fridge
• [~72%] The electrician on a film set, and why the process has to be the enjoyable bit
Chapters
Approximate positions, not timestamps. Replace with real times from the edit before pasting into a host that reads chapter markers.
~0% Warm-up: swearing, Scotland and first reactions to the film
~3% The film lets photographers talk about what they want to talk about
~6% Community, loneliness and "go outside"
~9% Is cheap kit a barrier? Camcorders, phones and the CCTV-tape story
~12% Why accessible filmmaking drifts to aggro, a £3 microphone and a trip to India
~16% Krishnamurti, dissatisfaction and the problem with gear talk
~19% The mock sign-off ("a great 17 minutes")
~20% The proper start: why make a film about this group of people
~24% 27 interviews kept, around 35 shot
~25% Street photography's image problem and Tatsuo Suzuki
~29% One voice, many versions of themselves
~32% Joey, and London as an overlooked photographic city
~35% Photographer first, filmmaker second
~42% "So I'm making it for no one"
~47% The sense of defeat after finishing
~55% Not arting well, and step counts versus frames
~61% Why make and share work at all
~64% Legacy, litter and Vivian Maier
~67% A portrait on a fridge, and a footballer who nailed it first take
~72% Enjoying the process: the electrician on a film set
~76% One-person production, books and the zine that fell flat
~84% Finding the right medium: video versus audio, and experimenting
~92% How the film was made: Nipon's one take and a gallery opening
~97% Where to watch it
Mentioned in this episode
People
• Simon King, the guest. His D.C. Exclusion Zone series, on the Biden inauguration, is likely the DC project we mention · [~3%]
• Daniel Milnor, photographer, Blurb creative ambassador and a past Prime Lenses guest; his Shifter post on the film is likely the blog piece mentioned · [~3%]
• Tatsuo Suzuki, the Tokyo street photographer at the centre of the 2020 Fujifilm X100V advert row · Wikipedia · PetaPixel on the controversy · [~25%]
• Joshua K. Jackson, street photographer in the film (Simon calls him "Josh") · Street Life podcast episode · [~20%]
• Joey Nutkins, the cinematographer Simon wants me to have on, working in anamorphic and making a short-film series about photographers · [~32%]
• Also in the film and named in the episode: Mike Chudley, Tim Jamieson, Cal Holland, Nicole Louw, Trisha Lyon-O'Neill and Nipon Ravel. Full cast is in the film's YouTube description.
Books and reading
• Think on These Things by J. Krishnamurti (1964, HarperOne edition), the book a friend recommended to me, with a chapter on creativity and constant dissatisfaction · Krishnamurti Foundation Trust · [~16%]
Music, film and video
• Everything Happens All the Time (2026), Simon's film · Watch on YouTube · IMDb · Letterboxd · [~0%]
• How the film was shot, in Simon's words: British Cinematographer · PetaPixel · Digital Camera World
Watch and listen
The film is free and runs 1 hour 45 minutes. It plays well as audio, which we also talk about.
Everything Happens All the Time (2026), full documentary
Quotes
It's easy to get a response from someone if you're being aggro. And so that's where you get so much fight content just filmed.
— Simon King, ~12%
I get nothing from the knowledge that out there somewhere someone has enjoyed something I made that's not connected to me. The enjoyment is from the making of the work and then the mutual enjoyment with others in either making or experiencing that work.
— Simon King, ~64%
The process of making something is not the process of looking at that thing. So if you're an electrician on a film set, if you only enjoy watching films and you don't enjoy being an electrician, you're not going to enjoy what you're actually doing.
— Simon King, ~72%
Mentioned but not linked
• "When I die, burn my negatives" [~64%]: Simon's blog article on legacy. Couldn't find the post; probably on his blog above.
• Simon's DC book [~3%]: Daniel Milnor "loved your book". I found the project but couldn't confirm the book's title or a page for it.
• Matty's book on Gaza [~5%]: my guest, who also photographed in Ukraine. Couldn't pin down who.
• The CCTV-tape production company [~11%]: Simon half-remembers it as "the people's production company", filming marginalised communities in the 70s and 80s. Nothing confirmable.
• Saga [~39%]: photographer and filmmaker who made a video for Ilford with his own drumming as the soundtrack. Not found.
• AP Leslie [~84%]: my recent video episode about his film. Link your own episode page.
• Still in Street, at the Photobook Café [~95%]: the gallery opening where Simon grabbed last interviews. Couldn't confirm the exhibition or host.
• The film on Dailymotion and the Internet Archive [~97%]: Simon says it's on both, as well as YouTube. Couldn't find either copy.
• Name-checked in passing: David Lynch and Eraserhead, Werner Herzog, Vivian Maier, Harmony Korine, Taika Waititi.
Credits
Hosted and produced by Iain Farrell. primelensespodcast.com
Prime Lenses – Episode 138 – Simon King
Cleaned transcript. Speaker 1 = Iain Farrell, Speaker 2 = Simon King. Unpunctuated passages are left as transcribed.
Iain
I've tended only to ever bleep out C-bombs.
Simon
Okay, no, that's not even a good one. So, like, it doesn't have the impact. It doesn't have that hard K.
Iain
So I would argue it's one of my favorite words. My wife and I bonded early in our relationship over the fact that it's just a word.
Simon
But I think you're more northern. That's more of like a yes. OK, because you're in the forest. So it's like it has more impact.
Iain
Yeah. So we're in Scotland. Michelle Gomez, the actor.
Simon
Yeah.
Iain
When she went to L.A. for the first time, she was doing bits of stand up and she would just walk up on stage and explain to me. It's like the but the butcher line in the in the boys.
Whereas the term of endearment where I come from. It's the end of a sentence. I'm fond of it.
But I agree.
Simon
I get that in America as well. They expect me to be more sweary in America. And I feel very pleasant.
Iain
Watching the film was really, really good. I really liked it. And I'm not just saying that.
Simon
The way I know you're not lying is at the screening, we had a packed out downstairs and it was really hot and unpleasant. And I was upstairs. I didn't watch it.
And I was like, they can't all be lying. They can't all be down there out of politely. Yes. And then two people came up for a cigarette and I was like, I knew it.
Iain
It's over.
Simon
They've started walking out.
Iain
Wonderful. And I think the thing is, it doesn't shy away. You don't stop the photographers talking about like photographing protest stuff, photographing that like the I can't remember the name of the photographer specifically, but who was photographing the Jewish community in the wake of an attack upon them.
Simon
Yeah. Well, that's a worry that I've had of like, like down, like downstream where like if someone sees the film and through that he's outed as being Jewish and they decide to attack him that's sort of on me but you say that but then if there's a photographer who's like I got this gig because they saw me in the film and I really liked it I'd be like wow great for you like I would take a bit of the pride but I'm all I'm going to take more of the guilt if anything bad happens to anyone because of what I've done to them you know?
Iain
Well, I think the thing to bear in mind is that he's out in the world making photographs of difficult places, a bit like the stuff you did with DC. Dan Milnor's a friend, and he loved your book. Oh, no.
Simon
I just remember insulting him really bad.
Iain
No, you can insult him.
Simon
No, no. We were on a photo walk, and he was like, yeah, 50% of my friends this, 50% of my friends that. And I was like, oh, you talked to both of them. And he was really like, hmm, you've got to do that. Got me there like uh and I didn't I think I just say whatever comes to mind and I think
Iain
Yeah I think game respects game on that one he's a he's a he's a big lad he can take and he wrote a lovely um
Simon
A lovely thing about the film on his blog that was really nice of him yes yes well I saw that and I saw the
Iain
Stuff about the book but but the thing I will say to embarrass you before we really get going properly no don't do the reason I love it well the reason I love the film is because you let the photographers talk about what they're talking about I've done episodes where I've spoken to I've had two photographers on now who photographed in ukraine and one of them also photographed in gaza extensively and matty's book specifically he wrote a book about gaza the reason I noticed after I had him on the show and after I spoke with him you know I don't really care whether like yes people in gaza yeah yeah yeah but the ultimate thing is people shouldn't like let's just all stop killing each other.
Simon
Oh no, absolutely not.
Iain
No, no, no. But I just use that as an example. There are a couple of one-star reviews on IMDB,
Simon
But there's no writing accompanying it. So I do wonder if that's just general haters. Because photography people are really passionate.
If you say the wrong thing about just something slightly factually wrong, you'll know. But I also don't hold it against them because there is... I'm not saying this as a denigration, but I actually sincerely mean it. But there's a lot of autistic, lonely people in not only photography, but all kinds of practices where they're so emotionally attached to it.
And I don't find that funny or quaint. I do find it quite sad. But I think that through the community side of it, you build that kind of person up.
But I don't want to say on a podcast setting, like, oh, all these autistic, lonely people. Like come and join a community like come and be a part of a community but part of like part of the film is showing that there is a better way than this kind of lone wolf um romanticized like hiding in a corner smoking a cigarette in a in a hat and like that kind of noir like I'm a detective long lens nonsense um you can actually have like so much of what makes the like the little details in the film where it's like you see in the background of me filming one photographer there's another one who's doing the thing or like we are actually hanging out it's not the illusion it's not like it's not feeling like a community it's not the sense of community it is a community but then there's also some of these photographers don't know each other but I've put them in dialogue um I just find that to be a really interesting like people have reached out and been like how do I join or like how and it's just like go outside um yeah but again I don't want to say it as bluntly so I always need to think about how to textualize it because I don't want to make lonely sad people sadder because like I've been there yeah and it feels like gatekeeping to
Iain
Some extent doesn't it like it's very easy what some people come to me about podcasts or making things and as a you know I'm a middle-class comfortable how dare you white guy right like so it's very so the barriers are not there yeah when I when I say to someone use your phone or pick up an osmo pocket like I found an osmo pocket for 230 quid on ebay right I was very lucky I just grabbed one for cheap But that might be insurmountable to so many people. And so it's very easy for me to sit here and go, oh, if you want to start a podcast, just start one. And then I'm 100 and whatever episodes in. But it's like, there is still a barrier.
Simon
No, but I think it's framing it like a barrier. So like when I shot this film, I hate and I've since gone down the gear, like the videography gear is so much worse than the photography gear. Because with photography, I'm not thinking about like, oh, I could get like a small screw. That adds like a feature I'll never use but I can just put that like I'm not thinking about like rigs yeah and for the film I'm using like a camcorder that you could like I almost wish it was a worse camcorder like a Hi8 because then it would feel like 9-11 footage and it would feel like quaint and charming not the 9-11 footage feel like there's that kind of camcorder aesthetic where you feel like any moment they're going to point the camera up and you're going to see it happen yeah but almost the 4k of it takes away from it because it's too it's too sterile it's too modern looking and then you get the issues of the modern camcorder but like it's exactly the kind of film you could make on your phone and I'm I am inspired by there's um there's a few filmmakers who who genuinely like they are like like it's a better what I own is a better camera than like werner hurtle was using with his early documentary stuff or any like early um there's a production company I think called the people's production company and they used to buy CCTV tape or CCTV film because it was just the cheapest available. And then they'd go into these marginalized communities, film them, and then be able to instantly show the community themselves on TV. This is like 70s and 80s. So like this wasn't done. You couldn't get that instant gratification, but they were giving it to like disabled people and people who wouldn't see themselves on screen.
And they get to be movie stars. And I really love that. Like if I could have filmed this on CCTV footage, that would have been incredible, but more expensive now. Where the cheap option is a digital thing, but still a better camera than has ever been used. But it's also like you can do it on your phone. You can just go out and have conversations.
But the problem with that is because it's so accessible, the vast majority of content that's made in that mindset is aggressive. It's easy to get a response from someone if you're being aggro. And so that's where you get so much fight content just filmed.
Meta glasses make it easier to have a bad interaction than a good one. And I find that when I'm filming, I'm like, oh, I could really just poke this person a few times and have incredible footage of them kicking off at me. But I don't want that.
But so many people do, and they're so good at getting it, but that's what you get. But I want, so I'm going to take the camcorder traveling in a couple of months to India, and I've bought this here. This is like three pound, and it looks classic, but I think it's from a karaoke toy.
So it's super cheap from like, not CEX, like a cash converters shit shop, basically.
Iain
But it works.
Simon
And I'll just hand this to people and have them talk. And I feel like that's how far more like I've got their full attention. They're holding something. They're not just on camera.
But then I can do little interviews and vignettes and it feels a bit more formal for them. So not just like an influencer.
Iain
Puts them in a headspace as well because they're holding a microphone. And you're sort of, you know, it'll be a nice fun thing.
Simon
But you could do that with three pan and an iPhone and travel and make lovely, warm content. Or you can go and be like, look how poor and look how shit everyone is. I'm going to get food poisoning deliberately because I don't know what I'm doing. That sort of thing. I much prefer the idea of that, of taking it a bit more seriously and having content that is that much nicer and then there's no audience for it because who cares about nice people being nice?
Iain
I think on a long enough timeline we will be proven correct.
Simon
I don't have long left. I don't have a long time. Well you do.
Iain
Long enough timeline I mean you know it's very difficult to stay positive sometimes in 2026 but.
Simon
You've got no other truth. I have faith. No exactly. There's no like you know I'm not gonna wallow but it's more like I do also need to pay bills.
Iain
Yes.
Simon
But then it's like I don't want to sell communities back to themselves. I'd rather be... But then I'm on the line of like, I am preaching the exact same message that every other holy guru has ever taught, which is like peace, love, compassion, understanding. And they're all ascetic, so they've got no possessions and go and live in a commune, but I can't really do that.
Iain
Yeah, but I think the fact also that that is the common theme that comes through in a lot of teaching, This morning I was reading something. A friend of mine recommended a book. He writes an occasional newsletter he sends out.
He recommended a book and I'm just looking because I've only just managed to grab. Think on These Things, which is by an author who, he said, opening the book to check. Did you do Krishnamurti?
Yes.
Simon
I know the Krishnamurti Foundation.
Iain
He has a chapter on creativity and basically being a constant state of dissatisfaction. And that that's what leads to good creative work, which I find really interesting because as someone making an audio thing in a visual first world, because I'm dissatisfied with the general quality of most audio things. And quality, I mean, the substance of it, the nature of the conversations that, you know, like it's a lot of geary stuff. And actually, I want to have a conversation a bit like the conversation we're having right now. In photography,
Simon
In photography, sure. It's dominated because it's so easy to talk about gear because it's not because if you're not talking about gear you're talking about things that aren't photography centric because I've said to my students like when you've gone away from this if you never pick up a camera again but you take up like painting or poetry like you can do all of that within a photography practice because you're still it's about seeing and being receptive and being a sponge to these things and then if you put that into whatever so even in the film like Trish takes a that she's not that happy with but she puts it into her drawings and her artwork. I'm not sure if they're like, what?
I've never actually seen one in person. But I know that these art pieces. And then it doesn't need to be a photo.
But it's so easy to be in photography and want to appeal to the community by making a photo.
Iain
Yes.
Simon
Whereas if I suddenly, it's why I'm really conflicted with the idea of like, people have started talking about me as if I'm a filmmaker. It's like, I'm a photographer and please look at my photos. That's what I'm actually really making. And they're like, what film are you making next?
Leave me alone. I want to do my photography thing, which I enjoy. So if we round off, just please leave me alone.
That's it.
Iain
Thanks for having me on.
Simon
I really appreciate it. Did you remember, hit today and record and I'll see you another time.
Iain
It was a great kind of 17 minutes.
Simon
That's perfect. I think we covered everything. You're not going to get better than that.
I think Tim, he's in my film, he did a video with me on his YouTube and he said I was the best warm-up he ever did and then the actual content was just not there. It was like we did it all in the off-camera. It's the best off-camera interview he's ever done.
So be ready for that.
Iain
I am very excited to sit down and talk to you. I've been really looking forward to it. As I said to you in our pre-ammer some of which will have made its way in. I love the film and I love the community that you're depicting because I think like Cal says at the beginning it's a lot of people don't have much of an interaction with street photography and when I've come across street photographers in the past like people like Josh Jackson for example what's interesting your film I can see what the man looks like.
Normally when people photograph him they do it in the dark lit by some of the lanterns in Chinatown. And he's wandering around the rain and he looks like some sort of PI and then actually it's lovely just to see him going yeah there was this woman with chewing gum on her shoe and it was great and I missed it and just it sort of humanizes the community in a very real way and I think the sense of gratitude and excitement and creative frustration is all emotions are there so what I wanted to sort of start by asking and then I want to get obviously later on onto photography and things like that What made you decide to make a film about this group of people? Because it seems like an artifact of pure joy and celebration.
Was that always the impetus or did it become that?
Simon
Well, I'll start by saying I think Josh would prefer to stay that kind of mythical. I apologize for outing him so abruptly as I did in the film. But we've seen what he looks like and he looks great.
But yeah, I think there is that kind of that level of performance that you get on on content based. So like social media, YouTube, where people embody the role that sort of is in line with their work. Like you get work, the kind of it makes sense that this material came from this person because their life is like whatever.
But I think it's interesting then that you that you say, like, Oh, the film is pure joy. And did it come from that? Because I actually think like, it sort of didn't. Whereas like, I'm from my own perspective, making record of what's available to me.
And that's the same process I go through with all of the other work that I do. So the communities I document, I'm not just kind of like, in passing, which takes me out of that kind of street photography, you know, work with what comes to you, I'm going to it, but then in going, I'm also finding that I'm around all these people. And what's called a community for that kind of kayfabe to the movie is more just like this is a collection of people I know.
So there is communities and cliques and niches and people who know each other, don't know each other, know each other by reputation and so on. But what makes it communal is that they're convenient, that I can talk to them and make this film. Without the kind of... Because 27 interviews is a lot.
And that's what made it into the film. There were actually, I think, 35. And some people were cut. And that doesn't mean that they're cut from the community or whatever. It just means that they didn't fit into the film. You've got to kill your darlings. And that's like... I think so much of the process behind making this film was recognizing how many stereotypical fortune cookie expressions are actually deeply the truth.
And it really is like everything everyone's ever said is true in some way. But you need to be able to listen to it in the way that makes sense while you're doing it. The origin was that I recognized that photography itself is a niche of a niche. And then street photography is a niche of a niche of a niche.
It's so belittled that the most contact people will come into it with is anything that... That transcends the medium. So anything that becomes photojournalism, documentary, history, or anything that becomes controversial.
So like there's always big controversy when a photographer messes up or when they sort of perform. A while ago, I think years ago at this point, there was a photographer, I think Tatsuo Suzuki, I think that's correct. And he did an advert for Fuji where he was like performing photography for the camera.
And then people were looking at it and going, oh my God, what an awful way to take pictures. And it's like, because you've got that level of engagement where people are looking to criticize even the idea of that kind of photography, you've almost got to showcase the reality, which isn't, I think it isn't like any performance I've seen of photography or any, any like mask that photographers put on to become that person who does like kind of fast paced, candid, whatever. Like, I think you see from the film that it's a, it's a, almost a lot more boring than, people who try and sell workshops on the merit of we're going to teach you how to do this kind of like martial art form as you weave in amongst the crowd and you'll be able to like take these glancing blows off of people um and I I think you can do that anyway but you don't need to go to a workshop to learn it you just do is just doing photography um so the the premise of the film itself is like there is all this media that exists but I don't think there's been like a and obviously correct me if I'm wrong because I know someone will pull up some archive from the BBC and be like actually there was this incredible expose on street photography from 1971 and you didn't see and you didn't do your research but from what I could find there's not a strong kind of foundational body of work that shows not just street photography not just London in street photography but people who are street photographers doing this thing whatever that means to them in London in this context.
And there's all kinds of incredible short or shorter form content which works with individuals and that's really lovely. And some of the people who make that kind of content I featured in the film. Mike's got a great YouTube.
Tim's got a great YouTube. Some of the others have fantastic channels and blog posts, podcasts themselves. But it tends to be that kind of one-off, let each person say their piece and then withdraw.
Whereas this is all, this is, the way I structured it is almost as if it's one person talking through versions of themselves about everything. So it's not no one person I think is like singled out as like it's about them. Although I've got jokes with people about like who it's really about.
But like so so some of these some of these other kind of I call them filmmakers because I think they are. But I think they they don't necessarily embrace that and would prefer like vlogger or content creator or YouTuber or whatever. But I so I went to the people. You and I said you know what would be really great is if you did something that was like a feature length piece and like look how popular this is and look how popular this is and look how much like look how good it would be but I think there is like a mindset shift when you're already in the flow of making what you're making that you're like I don't want to it's not about not wanting to try something new but it's about like it's it is a huge amount of work and an undertaking to do something where so for them they've got like metrics to like look at and they've got a method. Whereas because I don't actually care, I was able to more freely be like, well, I'll do it myself. I distinctly remember having a conversation with one of them where I'm like, you've got all this incredible, you've got filmmaking equipment that people would kill for.
You've got some of the top is range and you've got this. And they went on to then start a really, really incredibly shot, like actual cinema series of short films. Of films about individual photographers.
And I'm really looking forward to that coming out. So I think it's going to be way better than like what I shot. Because the way he's going about doing it, but it's not a film.
Like they are a series of short films, but it's not a feature film, if that makes sense. Like, again, it sounds like I'm belittling his work when it's actually like some of the best content I've ever seen.
Iain
Yes.
Simon
I should probably shout him out. It's Joey, who's in the film. Just absolutely incredible cinematographer.
Just like, the stuff he's putting out, he's using anamorphic lenses. You'll have to have him on at some point if I'm allowed to make a recommendation. And you can see from the film, even though he's one of the shorter elements, he's got that production energy to him.
He's lessing off this aura of energy and just creativity that's really in the filmmaking and his photography and everything. Any excuse to promote someone, which I do through the film, But I feel like I have to raise these people up. Because they're incredibly great.
And London is so overlooked in photography. It doesn't have that kind of cultural gravity that I think it should. And by we, I mean me to myself, I guess. But the export of this country is not physical, necessarily goods or labor. We are a service-based economy.
And part of that is classically in that kind of creative, B.C. soft power cultural creation. And I'm not like British filmmaking, like anything does not have that same appeal as that big, like exciting New York.
Like New York is that huge gem in the world's kind of cultural mindset. And like, but I think London has so much going for it. And it is still there.
I'm just not like maybe I'm in a bubble where I'm not seeing or I'm taking it for granted. But I think there is a value to that, to having. What makes the work that we're doing here different to anywhere that you're more commonly used to seeing portrayed in that kind of English-speaking media?
Iain
You definitely do highlight London as kind of like a really special place. Each of the people you speak to definitely has got that lovely photographic sensibility of I'm pushing to make something and it's a common thread through the documentary but also through conversations I have on the show that nobody quite has it all figured out and that's good and that everyone is kind of moving and changing through time.
Simon
Yeah for sure.
Iain
And I think that's such a different discipline for you because you're you know I know you as a photographer first and then the film comes along you know the work you did like in DC and that beautiful book you put together of that with like the notes and the other things that you know the layout of that book is is more than So I'm curious because you wrote you've written in the past about oh I've I can call myself a photographer now and I can you know I've been doing it for 10 plus years at this point I've made a book and I've made zines and like you've you've ticked off a bunch of well not ticked off is the wrong word makes it sound very you've done a bunch of things well like okay let me rephrase it then you've done a bunch of the things that people when they start to take photography more seriously say that they want to do they're milestones they're sort of things that you yeah I Yeah, yeah. So if you've achieved a bunch of these milestones and now you've made a film as well and you've taught and you think very deeply about the medium, I'm curious as to how the film is interacting with your photographic practice. Is it a case of you're going away and making something? Because as a creative person, we would, in the preamble, you mentioned Werner Herzog, for example.
And people like him and people like David Lynch are very powerful, useful reference points in creativity more broadly. Because they are or were keen to remind us to make things and not worry too much about what we're making or why we're making at the moment. The person who spent years making a Eraserhead is here to tell you that that thing can change several times and you can start as a painter and end as a filmmaker.
So I'm curious now, the Simon I'm speaking to today, are you comfortable as a photographer? Are you moving back towards still images? Where do we find you?
Simon
I'm not comfortable. It's interesting you mentioned Lynch. Not that I'm comparing myself.
But it is interesting in that kind of milestone context. Where he premiered his first ever feature film. The Eraserhead.
At the same age as I've premiered mine. And he spent years making his. And I spent about four months actually shooting mine.
It's a much. But then all of the barriers and hurdles. That come with making a fiction film and building the props. I didn't do any of that.
But then you can also say that the work that went into it is not just the actual production. It's like, I'm in this community, and then it reaches a critical mass of I'm having all these interesting conversations. I've just got to get that down and then make the record.
So obviously it took a very short amount of time for the actual production itself and the editing, but it's also I've got all the immunities of Premiere Pro. But what I'm saying is it's so easy to to make that comparison or to see yourself with other like where was he where like what was he working on at this age like where am I like obviously age is nothing because like you can you can do some great work when you're like 60s like 80 years old or whatever um but it is still interesting measuring those milestones and I actually like if I keep going like this I can maybe achieve this or I can maybe do this in in whatever context um but the question you asked was about like my identity as like a as like a
Iain
Yeah, just a simple question.
Simon
No, no, no. We all heard it. Who I am, I'm just doing what I'm doing. And I've said before, I think the more interesting question and one I've discussed with Saga, a great photographer, filmmaker, again, whatever you want to call it, but it's like if tomorrow we lost our sight, what would we pick up?
And for him, he would go more deeply invested in his music. I don't know if you saw, I worked on a little video with him for Ilford, and he did the soundtrack with his drumming, which works really beautifully in the background, because you're hearing it throughout the piece, and then he talks about his drumming, and then it's like he did his own soundtrack, which is just incredible. And I play a couple of instruments not very well, and a couple of instruments I'm not allowed to, because they're too noisy and annoying and irritating.
But I'd probably just go more into them if I couldn't see, if I couldn't do a visual art. But I would still be in that art. I would still be in that kind of decorating time with whatever I can sense.
And it's like if I lost my limbs but I could still tap my foot, I'd just get really good at tapping my foot. So because I have all these tools accessible to me, I know it's incredibly privileged and not everyone owns a camera, but it seems like anyone who owns a phone owns a camera. And a lot of people own a phone.
So if you have that, do whatever with it. Photography, filmmaking, whatever. But obviously it is a really difficult question because then what I want my identity to be is to be in that process of making something.
And it's like I was a filmmaker when I was making this film and it played into the edit a little bit where I end the film on a sad note for a few reasons. But it's also like the version of myself I was as a filmmaker making that film doesn't exist anymore. And I'm in that gap between like, well, I've still got like eight or nine photo projects that will maybe be finished in the next five years.
But now I've got this like responsibility of I've got to make another film. And I think it's definitely not going to be soon another film about photography or photographers, which means I lose that entire audience. So I'm making it for no one.
And I'd rather my audience not be photographers. I've said about this film, like I'd prefer, obviously it's like preaching to the choir for anyone who's already into street photography, but I'd rather someone who is more interested in those kind of like ethical concerns about like candid imagery and candid surveillance to see the film and recontextualize or inform their idea that it's all like creepy white men with long lenses hiding in bushes. Like I'm not, I didn't feature anyone like that.
And if I had, they would probably be like a nature, there's actually a who works in Hyde Park, who's someone I regret not including, because I didn't see him during the production time, but he would have been a great inclusion. But even then, he's not creepy, so I shouldn't have mentioned him in that context. But for that audience of like, I could just keep making stuff for photographers, but I don't want that because I already know that photographers have got the delivery of what I've presented here.
And I think there are a couple of photographers who I will do longer, like features just about them but that's because they are like stand out um even beyond photography but if I wasn't a filmmaker and I wasn't a photographer would I like write their biography probably not that wouldn't be what I'm like interested in making because I because then that would be like if I'm writing I might as well write like a like a story that includes elements of their truth but not really and then it's like well do I make a fiction film and I've written some treatments for those but once you start looking at that then I've I need crew and actors. And then I'm responsible for their paycheck. And responsible for making something that's good for them and for their career and for the next steps.
And for this film, obviously I've got a responsibility to portray all these people as they present themselves to me. Which includes some of those human errors and stuff that they made. Which is a joke and fun moments.
But with a fictional film, the worst case scenario is not only does no one see it, but it doesn't even get finished. Everything and like it makes their careers worse and like that's I'm not ready to take that on so I don't know I don't know what I'm doing next or now or previously like but I'm in that space where I say that as a as a to make light of a difficult struggle that you know creatives go through and then I've got these projects coming up that like I told you the plan to go and like do some interview content in India and I call it interview content but like It would be a film and it would have themes and it would have a storyline and a narrative and a vibe and a message. But then is the audience for that the same people who saw this?
Probably not. And then is the audience for that the kind of communities I'm working with in London? Also probably not because they're not interested in my view of India.
And then it's like, is it Indians in that country or like Hindus or Muslims or whatever? Like they don't need to see films about themselves. So then I'm like, well, who is it for?
But then that's overthinking because people are making all kinds of things all the time for just anyone. And they are being absorbed and into the culture and seen and there's an audience for it. So I'm like, why do I care about these questions?
Iain
You wrote earlier this year about a sense of defeat. Oh, yeah, I've definitely written about that. That's definitely me. I think a lot of people listening will be able to relate to that sense of exhaustion or fatigue when you finally push something over the line.
And then you slump back and you go, whew, I think that can be quite a useful thing to anticipate. It's a bit like the end of a workout or the end of a long walk or something. It's okay to feel tired at the end of it. Have you kind of, your relationship with it when you wrote about it seemed kind of, it could have gone either way.
Simon
So there is that poetic sense of like, you don't get sad when, maybe you do, but like autumn happens and you know that the leaves do need to wither and die so they can nourish the ground so that you can have summer and the bloom and all of that. And that, you know, life only emerges from that kind of bed of death. And so, in theory, I should just be able to go, well, I'm in a slump or I'm in a creative whatever.
And from that kind of fertile ground of imagination, something will emerge. But in reality, what it feels like is that I'm not producing anything. I'm not like economically viable.
I'm not interesting or friendly. And I just kind of withdraw into myself. And then I've lost all of those kind of like childlike things that I used to do to pass the time just in general.
And then I've lost a sense of adventure. And then where do I go from that? And then that kind of spirals and crashes.
And then I'm like, well, I've got to do something. And then I'm like, well, I guess I'm working on this or I'm doing this or whatever. There's obviously more to it than that.
But it's like, I want to take away that kind of romanticized like, oh yeah, you've got to go through the kind of that kind of like flat so that you can experience the peaks. But then like, I'm really glad that I'm not in that kind of Hunter S Thompson, just like you're in a creative slump. So take whatever.
And that's going to kick your brain into like, like, I'm not like that. But then what am I? Because like, I've been on enough creative walks in nature or creative walks in the city where I'm just walking with nothing and just thinking. And it's like, okay, well, I've been alone with my thoughts enough.
What can I do that's not that? Because I don't want to be in that anymore. So the kind of defeatism is knowing that even an absolute best case scenario for creativity is I make something.
And if it's that obvious, there's no surprise. There's nothing to keep me engaged. With the practice if I already know that if I put my mind to something it'll probably work out or it'll probably be nice or like passable and that's quite a dangerous place to be because then it's like well now I've got to like I've got to crush my lows even lower so to reset my baseline so that the highs can be higher even if my mediocre is still pretty good like overall like I know that I'm a half decent photographer my work's okay but I'm not like I'm not one of the great and I don't have that kind of whiplash thing of like I want to be one of the greats. I don't think in this context it's possible to stand out in that sense which is why when I start looking at other mediums it's like okay I can make a film and that's really something because not everyone's made a film.
There's lots of people who have made videos or short films and stuff like that but an actual feature film is an accomplishment that I should be proud of and I keep telling myself that but then is that enough? Because then if I just make another film then I'm a filmmaker and that's boring because that's all been done before as well so what's that thing that I can push creatively not just for myself but what actually is achievable and then I'm looking at stuff that's really socially relevant or like I think In that kind of filmmaking space, there's the horror is always that kind of indie genre. And I don't enjoy horror as a genre.
Yeah, I'll stand behind that. I don't enjoy horror as a genre in that kind of like gory whatever sense. But that kind of filmmaking runs the indie discourse because it is a lot of that kind of film that gets into the public eye and the audiences will keep coming back.
So do I make a photography, documentary, cultural, horror film? And then I'm like, has that been done before? And I'm like, I've got ideas for it and I've written a treatment, but then it's like, it's the budget thing.
So there are a few things where I could do them and they would be genuinely innovative and unique. Whereas I know that with this, with my first effort, there's genuinely nothing innovative or unique about it because it's like the most basic film you play. Can make where it is that um that kind of interview talking head plus b-roll and that's it like there's no special effects there's no um animated segments it's like it it could almost be a
Iain
Powerpoint you're exploring though I think something that's a recurring theme through the film as well about a lot of photographers you're speaking to are wrestling with what am I making why am I making it Am I present enough? Am I just going through the motions? Like at one point, I think it's Josh says, you know, I've got to check in with myself.
Otherwise, I'm just walking. And then before I know it, I've just walked for three hours. And that might be good. I think the other thing, though, that comes through it is, and through this conversation as well, is that not every day I wrote about this once I did a newsletter and the subject line was I didn't art very well this week.
Because some weeks you just can't, somehow you can't find traction. And that's not, That's actually not bad. Taika Waititi talked about this a while back when I saw an interview with him where he said sitting down at your laptop and having a program open and a blank document and opening the laptop and then closing it eight hours later having written nothing compared to opening it, writing some things and closing it. Both of those are writing.
Simon
Oh yeah.
Iain
Both of those active and it's the same to some extent for making things or recording or speaking to someone or episodes. I think the thing I've learned through doing this for is that sometimes in a conversation it doesn't feel kind of easy or I'm not sure but then I listen back to it and the through light the interesting thing is two people going back and forth and having a dialogue that's the thing that makes it interesting yeah and so I when I when I watch the film and I hear you talking it sounds like you're moving in the direction of what what excites you is communicating an idea and this is maybe a different medium for you to do that in and that that's exciting to you right now
Simon
Yeah, there is an element in the filmmaking where I'm kind of talking through these people's own. It's their own words. And what makes me a decent teacher as well is I do kind of talk around a question.
People will pick up on it when they hear me answer anything. But I think about what's been asked and I think about what's been really asked. And then I think about the actual honest answer.
And I'll kind of talk around it until I box myself in to a corner. And then I'll feel like I've kind of exhausted myself. And that's the pattern I go through creatively or whatever, which is really exhausting and draining.
But like, yeah, so with street photography, I've been sharing, I share like my step count compared with how many photos I actually shot and how lucrative the walk was. And some people were joking the other day, it's like, you know, you're walking these 20 kilometer walks and it's like three frames, you just don't have the eye. And I'm like, yeah, maybe I don't have the eye. Like, I'm like, I'm genuinely seeing so little. No, no, they may.
Maybe they meant it. I'll have to check on that. But like, but genuinely, I'll question like, maybe I'm not seeing like, I'm not that good. And I'll walk with people who will in the same time shoot like eight rolls.
Like, and they're seeing so much. And then I look at their work. And it's like, yeah, they did see something.
But like, I don't care what they saw. Like, no offense to them. They know who they are.
But like, yeah, they're making this work. That's like, it's fine. It's a, it's a photo.
And I,
Iain
See it in some kind of omnibus of street photography along with a thousand other pages I would leaf past but like I want to be making something that I that has that holding power to me and I have to believe that if I'm an audience to my own work there is an audience to another work one of the things that is that stood out when we were when I was watching the film as well about about uh I think nicole says it was when I wrote it down was about striving to be heard or seen and that's a kind of I think that's a motivation behind a lot of creative work and a lot of people bothering to put stuff out into the world at all whether anyone sees it or not like this this desire to create and make something I was curious with you what it was that kind of pushes you over the line because that that kind of sense of dissatisfaction or discomfort that drives a lot of creative work not everybody then goes out and make something some people just sort of snap something with their phone or they stick something in a notebook or they write something down and then get on what do you think it is that makes you want to make something and share it
Simon
Yeah, but that's enough. For some people, genuinely, the best notebooks are the ones that weren't meant to be read and weren't meant to be published or weren't people just doing things for themselves. Because what you do when you're not being observed, you're just doing that for yourself.
And I noticed that so much of my... I'll sometimes record with my GoPro mounted to my chest. And so much of that footage, I've got to do more work to it because I don't realize that I'm humming just constantly. Just like whatever's in my head and people have remarked as well I'll be walking with someone and they'll be like you know you've been singing for the past like half hour I'll be like no I haven't um but I guess that's just like my internal like noise emission and so I guess with the creative process I'm doing that same thing where I'm just kind of like uh I don't know how to explain every every creative self-help book has probably covered it you know you've got this this um this energy. And if you put that into your cooking, if you put it into music, whatever, but it's not, it doesn't go away. It only increases, I think, or maybe like depending on who you are.
For me, it only gets worse where I'm more frantically trying to get myself together in order so that I can actually put this work out into the world. Because if it's bottled up, it's really dangerous. I'm lucky to not have that kind of addictive personality, but I think it's why so many creatives do kind of numb that feeling of like you've got you've I don't know calling it like an itch. It doesn't do it justice because it's not it's not about getting relief yourself.
It's about like building easier question like you I'll answer to to an aspect of what you are. Is creating when no one's watching. I submit work to whatever people send me. And they're like, oh, your work would be good in it. So I submitted to a German gallery and they had it up and they sent me the photos and I'm in a stairwell in Germany.
And that's great. And I derive basically nothing whatsoever from that. So it's not about...
I get nothing from the knowledge that out there somewhere someone has enjoyed something I made that's not connected to me. The enjoyment is from the making of the work and then the mutual enjoyment with others in either making or experiencing that work. So like it's that question of legacy but I'm not going to be around so it doesn't matter what my legacy is.
So like when photographers say that they're making their work so that they can leave something behind I gent like I know disrespects like some of the loveliest people have said that sentiment but I just think of like litter I just think of like you're just making something so you can just crumple it up and throw it around like you've let you like great you've left them you've left your mark like you've left your plastic on the beach like so I've got a there's an article on my blog called when I die burn my negatives and it's I sort of do hope that like that that is listened to and it's It's akin to that kind of like Terry Pratchett had his manuscript steamrolled. And it's maybe not as dramatic as that. But it's still that essence of like, I have a voice.
I'm saying through whatever methods what I feel needs to be said by me in this context to whoever will listen. And if they're not listening, then it's not to them. But like, after I'm dead, I'll have left behind all of this kind of raw clay, these raw materials of the And if you're in a Vivian Maier situation, she's basically had her life, this work curated by two separate like entities, both of whom are saying something slightly different because they've got different bodies of work.
And then it's not her. And it's like, well, what did she want to say? Well, she said it during her lifetime.
And then she didn't like if she wanted stuff to be done, she would have left behind like a brief, you know, or like instructions. And some people do that. Some people have said, I'm leaving behind this like NAS storage. Of 14 terabytes to my child and they're going to take it on as a second job and curate me I'm like why would you do that to someone yeah that's awful um but what I get from um like the best uh scenario from my work was I I took a lovely portrait of um a girl in a pub um who worked there and just there was great light and I was like would you mind I took the portrait I came back the next week and I gave her a print and then I saw her again and she was like could I get another print because my mum nicked it and it's on her fridge and it's like okay that's like the best that I could hope for is that there's this this transmission of this image and it's gone through and it's gone to the person who will appreciate it most and then I've got to make another print so that someone else can appreciate but like that's and I'm and I'm personally involved with that even if they know even if her mum never knows my name or whatever they've got that like just that little piece of that I was involved and I was there and and had that interaction And then, again, I have no feelings towards that until I'm reminded of it again. And then I'm like, oh, that was really nice. And if I can string together a series of like, oh, that was really lovely, then that's what I want to look back on.
But I don't want it to be something I did. I want it to be something I'm in the process of doing.
Iain
I think it's something you experienced rather than it's sort of adjacent to that feeling of it's not about buying things it's about experiences oh yeah for sure because I think because you can't I make the show and I love recording it I love having conversations with people that's kind of this is a very meta like we're making reference to like the medium itself which is interesting yes but I think it's it's what it's what motivates you to do anything you know is is you the experience of going out and doing something. Because you can't, if you look at it in a photography context, you can't guarantee that your photo walk or your trip out or whatever will result in an image that you're happy with necessarily. You can, even if you're doing stuff in a studio that's very highly planned and highly set up, and maybe you've done test shots and things like that, and maybe the joy, actually the joy is probably in that and getting it ready.
And then the subject comes in and you kind of know what you're going to do. Years ago in a previous life, when I worked in an agency, we were doing the the football game and the FIFA the EA guys because they had a connection to all the footballers we had this idea that they would it would be like a desktop and the player would be sitting on some part of the desktop and they'd bounce a ball around the set and it would kind of land in the trash can right and they said I can't remember which player it was but it was someone awesome and they they basically they turned up to do this thing where they were going to kick a ball around the set and bounce it off a bunch of things and have it land in a trash can. They'd set aside an entire morning to do this and they'd set everything up and they were ready.
Guy comes in and he does it on the first take and then they're like well I guess we could film this again but why would you do it? And so there's kind of that team on that day had to find the joy in the setup and the getting it ready because the actual then the day itself was fairly it was in and out in minutes because this person is and knows what they're doing and they can just do that. If your excitement or enthusiasm or pleasure from this activity, from this project, was tethered to that, well actually it was over in 30 seconds.
So you better have enjoyed the process.
Simon
Yeah, the process of making something is not the process of looking at that thing. So if you're an electrician on a film set, if you only enjoy watching films and you don't enjoy being an electrician, you're not going to enjoy what you're actually doing. You're going to enjoy the very last bit which isn't even related to your job like yeah um it's that um I can't I can't remember who said it exactly so I don't want to misquote but it's like people talk about great art coming from like pain and suffering and it's like there is an element of that but you're if you're suffering while doing the thing itself so like van gogh obviously tragic life for how many reasons but if you don't frame his work on his as the most joyful moments of his life, then you can't enjoy the work because you're not looking at products of suffering. You're looking at the product of escape from that suffering.
So the creative process itself has to be the most joyful element of it, which is why some people like the flashy bit is always the shooting of the thing. And then the editing of the thing. If I did a time lapse of me shooting, I would be doing far more like physical stuff, running around doing all this stuff.
And then when I'm editing, you can do a time lapse of eight hours and it's raining outside and I'm just indoors, just a screen and it looks like any other nothing. And you won't see a smile on my face like that. But I still enjoy, I am still enjoying the editing process when I'm in that state.
And then when I find that I've hit a creative block or whatever, I can't frame it as, oh, I'm not enjoying it anymore. Because it's not gambling, it's not when the fun stops, it's I've still got to do this thing. So I just have to enjoy the creative block and then come back to it because I know that I'm going to keep enjoying it even though it's not as flashy, even though it's not the thing.
And that's where I think a lot of you've got to, I mean, yeah, in the current climate of production, you sort of have to become a one man or woman production team. You've got to be able to do everything. And that's something that I really avoided for so long. Like I really avoided being, because not only have I got to buy all this nonsense stuff, but I've also got to learn all these other things and I've got to learn how to enjoy the process of doing those things but if you hit the point where you only enjoy the videography and the cinematography and you don't enjoy the editing and you don't enjoy the pre-production then you might as well just work as that one thing for someone else but if you're a one person production company and you only enjoy one aspect of the production.
Does that make sense? So like for photographers, the pipeline of shoot Instagram, it's as instant gratification as you get. There's no barrier for entry, but it means that you don't have to do like, you don't have to become a bookmaker.
And if you don't enjoy being a bookmaker, then that's great because that puts me in work because I'll do it for you. And I've worked with quite a few people making that book and they genuinely like, if they're interested by the process, But to do it themselves has that kind of monotonous energy. Because they're not like, they're not putting together the pieces of reality the way you are when you're photographing.
But because I'm the third party, I can look at like the collection of puzzle pieces that people give me, and I can build it into that mosaic of the bigger picture. And it's enjoyable because I'm doing it as if I'm taking a picture.
Iain
What you're talking about there is really interesting because on the one hand, yes, you're right. I have to do the production. I have to do the hosting and editing and everything of the podcast in order to make it a thing and get it out into the world. And I could lean on other skills for other people to do certain bits of it. I'm not the scalable part, the editing and production is. But what's interesting is your work, editing and putting together books and things like that, I think makes you able probably to do the thing you're doing with the film because you've worked as part of teams and I think where the substance when you see a lot of self-produced videos on YouTube for example about the medium that we enjoy a lot of it feels quite surface and feels and a lot of it either the photography isn't very good but the filmmaking is quite good because really what they're interested in is making videos or the other way around you know actually the photography is great and the video is a bit crap because they're not a filmmaker And that's fine because you're making the thing that you make and you're completing something you're getting something out the door you're not dancing around it forever and having this oh I had this film in me you know you need to just kind of start but I think there's an element which I think is important in your film and in the way that you're approaching it you're doing this because that's the way to get this thing done and get it over the line you're not saying this is the only way to do it
Simon
It actually started as I tried to make a community zine, which was quite interesting. I've got a few copies there, but they were not on camera. I got a few people and I was like, submit your work through this QR code and blah, blah, blah, and with a bit of writing.
Then I just put it there and made a design and made a little book which had 10 or 15 or however many photographers work in it. I printed off 50 to 100 copies of the zine. I cut them and I stapled them and I gave them out and I was like, it's dead.
It was such an inert thing to the kind of anticlimax of like, I've made it, I've printed it, I've given it out and then there's nothing. I think a few months later someone was like, oh yeah, the zine came around and you made it. I was like, yeah, that's the extent of that.
But I'm like, how can I collect these photographers together and make their work into something that is more cohesive, is more of a collaborative thing. And the book, the zine making wasn't it because it wasn't, like, I think for that to work, it has to be like prestige, like a big thick omnibus of, like, here is street photography and it's in London and each photographer gets, like, a little section and, like, a more in-depth thing. It doesn't really, like, the collaborative zine format just didn't have that engagement. But I still did it because I was, trying to bring together these photographers and put them in something.
So the energy was there, but the medium itself sort of let me down. And I think that it does come back to that kind of like, I don't derive anything just from my work existing. And it's not that I need like feedback and criticism and compliments and all that sort of thing.
It's that I need to feel involved in the process beyond the completion of the process. So whatever I'm doing 10 years from now, I'm sure will be informed by what I did. What I'm doing now has been informed by the past decades and whatever.
Whereas just putting a thing out feels more like litter, like the analogy I used before, where I'm just like, okay, I've printed this thing and now it has no... Whether people read it or not, I don't know. And I don't want to set over someone's shoulder and look at them reading the book. But to an extent, the enjoyment is that sharing of the thing.
So because I'm a very visually-centric creator, when people are talking to me, I find it much easier to just go non-verbal and show them stuff on my phone or whatever and have this material. I'll be like, what did you do this weekend? And I'll just show them and not say a word versus actually having to talk about it.
Because then it's just like, oh, well, it was just, I went and did whatever. Whereas if I show you this is what I did, you get to experience that aspect of it. And I'm not a poet that I can string together at the water cooler some incredible tale of what I did over the weekend.
But if I show you, it'll probably be the coolest thing you've seen because people aren't doing what I do on the weekends.
Iain
I think the other thing you're touching on there that's interesting is that on the way to producing something, you can find the correct medium for it. So sometimes you can assume it's good to do these experiments, produce something, and then get to the end and go, this is a perfectly well executed thing, but actually this was the wrong medium for it. And then that leads on to the film. I think I did a video episode of the show recently, and I'm glad I did because talking to AP Leslie was great and talking about making his film, and I put some visuals in it, and it was fun to edit something and put it together.
But I edited both separately. And the audio version works just as well, if not better, because it's nice to listen. The thing I was amused by as I was making it, because I edited the video one first and then went and edited the audio one separately.
And I was listening to it like, I think I kind of enjoyed the audio one more, which makes sense because I make an audio thing more often. So it reassured me I'm on the right track.
Simon
For sure. Yeah, I've had, I think I said it before, I've had students where I've said like if this is the last time you ever use a camera that's fine because at least you've like put the effort in to trying like all this stuff like if you just come to learn from me and then you stay in your comfort zone and don't try something new and don't experiment then it's a waste of my time and yours I had a photographer sort of reach out to me with like no disrespect because like their heart was in the right place that was just awful awful like they'd done some kind of like clip art overlay like stuff to it so they they could have been like fine landscape I guess um photographs but they had all this kind of like weird stuff they'd done to it anyway and they're like what do you think of my photography and I'm like well it's not photography like it's not I'm not I'm not seeing but what I am seeing is this incredible platform that if you like printed this onto a 30 foot canvas and painted over it you'd have an incredible art piece that was standalone as an art piece But the mentality is that they've identified as I'm a photographer and so I'm making photographs. But like that's not the best.
When you look at these photographs next to what I consider to be the greats, it looks like the camera's broken or something's gone wrong. And that's like that aesthetic exists. What's his name?
Harmony Korine has done films where it's like it's that kind of extreme aesthetic, like really pushing like almost camera senses to the limit and that sort of thing. And that works because he's made it work but could actually make it into something else that not only worked but but like transcended the genre and the medium if only they could frame it that way to themselves to accept like I've made a starting point with a camera and the finishing point is going to be the paintbrush um yeah and and then that that really is there's there's like collage artists who are just making stuff out of whatever and then street photography is incorporated and it's like you can't just say this is one thing. That's why every practice will involve experimentation.
If it's going to stay fresh, if you're going to not be bored by it. I would go to a very bad place if I had to make the same thing over and over and over, which is why I've found working several jobs and being a freelancer and doing as much as I can and being able to jump between things and seasonal jobs and that sort of thing. Works for me because if I like if you gave me the best like studio photography job and all day I had to sit there and it was really well paid and I would have to set up studio and take the photos of like products or whatever like I'd not like that wouldn't be for me but for someone else that would be the best offer like value proposition at all but because I can't experiment in that space like I need to be in the world I need to be pushing myself like I'm pushing myself more socially than photographic because it sounds odd but I've almost found that kind of paint by numbers approach with photography where I can consistently take a half decent photo and that's all you need like if you can get half your photos to be kind of good and then you put yourself into situations where regardless of where you put the camera they're going to be really good then you're going to be making something really excellent because you're going to push yourself beyond both of those sort of bars that you've set for yourself and then so I'm not doing anything groundbreaking like I'm not doing prism lens ball stuff.
And then I'm also not doing, I'm not trying to change a lot with my approach of like, I want it to be as background as possible so that I can really immerse myself in where I am. And then from there, when I see the potential, the camera does its own thing. And that's also partially how the film worked, where I selected equipment that would do its own thing.
And I didn't need to like, and that way I could really have these conversations and that's what it is like the film people have like listened to it as a podcast which means you lose out on some of the visual aspects but like you can just like hear it as a conversation with like in the position of me hearing these people like talk and hearing that kind of flow of consciousness and stream of consciousness across the runtime that's what needed to excel. And everything else is sort of like not as important as that.
Iain
Interesting you say that because I did think that while I was watching it and I did wonder whether it was me just projecting my recent experience of making a video episode. But it does work. It does work as audio only with like the music coming in and sort of creating space after a thought.
Simon
And that music is sort of like that kind of crackling along in the background, like that fireplace, just like it's there, but it's not extreme. But if I went to like Iceland, where the stunning visuals, then I would need to have like an extreme camera set up to really like get the visual aspect and to justify that. But because I'm just walking around with a camcorder and microphones, I can, I obviously like I'm belittling my own work.
I did put work into the visual aspect. I did put work into all those montage sequences and the framing and trying to get that kind of more than just a talking head. I tried to change up the focal length and static shots and I composed and all that stuff.
But that's all still happening in the background to what's the most interesting thing that I think this person could say to me at this time. What could they offer? And then towards the end, the last few people I interviewed, it was barely an interview because I already knew what had been said. I was editing as I went.
I'd already knew what had been said so I knew what kind of gaps needed to be filled so if they started talking about something that wasn't important or wasn't like a very good I mean I just move on just like so I'd cut off I don't like to like cut off the stream of consciousness but like this is going to be a waste of your time if you keep talking I know it's not going to go in but I was able to have that mindset of knowing what is important knowing what I did want to say and then making sure that I had the right materials to say it so I think the last the last significant segment I worked on was Nipon. And we had a whole 20-minute walk. We were walking around and doing all this stuff.
And then we got to one corner and he just gave it to me in one take. Just everything. And I was like, I think I'm not going to use anything else you've given me today. That was it. That was fine.
And then I got some close-ups. It was that simple. But it took that kind of initial preamble and more up to get to that point where I could then be like, that was it. And we're done.
And then I think I recorded a couple more shorter segments during a gallery opening. It was quite annoying. I thought that the production had finished and it was over.
And then I had one more person to work with. But then I was at this, it was Mark's Still In Street Gallery at the Photo Book Cafe. And everyone was there, including a lot of people. I was like, oh, I could get like a 30 second letter, I guess.
And so I was just like pulling people out of the crowd. At the same time thinking like I don't have time for this but like some of it made it in and like and I think it did it did work for like a bit more flavor and just to have that that even if you even for the people who are in it for like not even a minute they're still it's because they're saying something or they've got a perspective that hasn't been offered by anyone else so it's just giving that little sprinkling of like there's more to it there's more going on than even like could be contained if that makes sense yeah it does it definitely those sequences I think they're another
Iain
The bits you're talking about as well do give a sense of the community meeting as a group of people with a with with a shared passion not just bumping into each other on the street and hanging out or like ducking down an alley to have a chat to you it's it it puts it in a wider context of there is also an art scene that kind of is adjacent to this and overlaps and the gallery scene and there's all of that kind of stuff that is happening all around of it yeah I think that is kind of a lovely note to send people off to go and watch the film so for people listening
Simon
Where can they go and find the movie well it's actually it's on it's in a few places it's on um it's on youtube it's on daily motion but then it's also on internet archive which is like um a bit of an odder one I think to upload to but it's because I don't want to be like beholden to a platform I don't want the platform to dominate the the thing itself so if people want to like it's a it's a decent um like 1080p version of the film you can download it you can like watch it on the go I think you can torrent it from there. But I wanted to get it out in as many, not as many places, but in as accessible places as possible. And I know that YouTube and Dailymotion aren't that for everyone, whereas Internet Archive is a bit broader.
Iain
Yes. Yeah, I love it. Hopefully the Internet Archive is forever.
Simon
Well, nothing's forever. Well,
Iain
As close to.
Simon
But it's more if people are going to download it and make their own backups, then it will survive. It's like my negatives won't survive. But if I've given someone a print, if a book exists in a library, that's what outlasts. Not that it's about that, but it means that if I've not put the effort into making the thing and putting it out, then it obviously didn't matter to me that much while I was alive to actually get it done, which is a huge amount of pressure to get it done.
Iain
This has been brilliant. I can't wait to kind of listen back to this. I think I could talk to you for three hours, but that would be an irresponsible length of podcast to put out.
Simon
There's definitely been three-hour podcasts.
Iain
Oh no, there have been. I'm just... Not for you.
I think I'd be taking the mick.